Does disillusion with ciswomen accelerate dysphoria?

Question

Does disillusion with ciswomen accelerate dysphoria?

I swear I was always comfortable with my masculinity till I realized we don't get shit for being men. Women expect us to do all the work, but don't treat us with any respect in return. It hurts desu. I used to fantasize about being a woman, not even out of desire to be one, but just because they get to experience actually being loved. It became a slippery slope, because as that thought experiment progressed it felt more and more like an escape from the hellish loneliness I've experienced. I just want someone to care about me desu. That's all I ever wanted. And now it's warped my views to the point where I look at certain female characters from my favorite movies and just think about how I could become them :(

Spent some time talking to someone online today and realizing maybe I am trans but I don't know. I've always seen myself as a cisman but I look at all my guy friends and they're very different from me in terms of sexuality. They get a decent looking woman in front of them, they want to get with them by all means. For me, even when I have the opportunity I just want someone who can care about me in return. I think about our future, and if there even is one before committing to anything. I overthink things and cockblock myself. I psych myself out by considering what the other person is thinking about instead of selfishly pursuing my own interests. I don't know any other men that do this, only to find out talking to someone today that I might be trans. I'm not sure if they're just influencing me, but I feel confused and questioning my identity increasingly so. I just want love and I no longer feel that ciswomen are capable of it, with how I've been treated. They'd be better to me if I was more stereotypically male as my friends are.

To make things worse, some girls I was texting that I met when I was drunk at various clubs, I was able to figure out who is who because I remembered what outfits they were wearing. FFS it's over for me

inb4 incel post

I just want to say how I feel no matter how it comes across, because I can't help how I feel nor do I choose how to feel. I just want to at least express myself here because if I can't here then I can't anywhere

Yes, I attempted courtship when I was 13 and immediately thought to myself "holy shit this is terrible" and to this day I consider that experience the most significant contributor to my choice to transition. I felt deeply inferior to women (girls) and disgusting as a man (boy) and developed a lot of complexes about how undesirable I am soon after. I still have them today but they have transformed a little. I literally stopped being attracted to women entirely because they made me feel like shit about myself and thinking about myself being intimate with a woman is like imagining myself tracking mud into heaven. I don't understand how any man puts up with the degradation and humiliation to be honest. It's so dehumanizing.

Nah.
It's a progressive disease.

just because they get to experience actually being loved

This is real tho. Female privilege is never having to beg for intimacy.

It's a painful process when you start analyzing the complexities of the situation. You realize that all you are is disposable in the grand scheme of things. I used to read about spiders, and thought to myself if all of the male black widows inevitably die, devoured by their mates then why do they continue doing so? I suspect it's in their nature though, and they are a slave to their nature. I'm beginning to wonder if even our nature can be flexible. As if my internal state is rejecting the life that was assigned to me in favor of something better. It's becoming harder and harder to even entertain the idea of being with a woman, yet I don't find myself attracted to men except in the meta sense of being attracted to the idea of being attractive. It's all fucked. I've got brown curly hair but I've never grown it out, but the image I posted is literally what it would look like if I grew it out. I used to just find her attractive, and I still do but now it almost feels like I'm almost equally interested if not more interested in the idea of being her rather than being with her.

Have you transitioned? At what point did you know?

I wouldn't mind working for intimacy if the intimacy was real. Truthfully I can get laid easier than I can get a woman to actually care about me (which I've yet to do since my first gf in high school). Truthfully I'm not entirely sure that they are capable of it in the same sense that we are. The species continues if cismen are hardwired to love and sacrifice for our women and children, even if it requires self sacrifice. However, the species doesn't continue if that is mutual and the women and children sacrifice themselves. Thus they are not hardwired for self sacrifice, as it is not advantageous. In that sense, I would hypothesize that the only woman capable of unconditional love is a mom for her child, and possibly a grandmother for a grandchild. Anything else and it's only about what they can get from you. Unfortunately this lines up with my lived experience.

By we I don't mean men because I understand you are a transwoman. Rather I mean we in the sense of those who have been born male at birth. I wholly respect your identity and womanhood. I'm just speaking to the lifepath that biology attempts to assign us

The worst part about what you're going through is that it's pretty obvious what you need is a good cuddle to make you feel human again, and nobody is going to give it to you.

It's disgusting and it makes me cry the way men are treated these days.

:( You're not wrong. Thank you for your compassion. I'm genuinely trying to get a more experienced opinion than my own, do I sound trans or am I just a deeply depressed/disillusioned man?

Have you met men? There are plenty of women in loveless relationships. Have you seen the men on the gay apps? Cheating?

You and op have trust and intimacy issues with women. I agree with your point on the controlling nature of gender roles, except I was a young girl. I despised the idea of only existing to work and be a mother. Be weak and inherently less successful.

I then had many negative experiences with men. The usual stuff plus rural blue collar stuff. So plenty of reasons to hate men. I still don't. There's nothing to be gained from generalizing an entire gender like that. Plenty of shitty men and women out there. Plenty of great ones too.

I trooned years ago, I wanted to troon since I was 5 and then again around 13-16 and then I became hikki for years and trooned in my 20's. I don't think I'm "really trans" but there's too much negativity around being male for me and I don't want any of it so I'm happier this way

You don't necessarily have to be trans if that isn't the life you want for yourself. You sound like a romantic. That's wonderful. I don't believe it to be inherently gendered. Your friends just sound young and horny. You may have androgen insensitivity or something. Something influencing your sex drive. But overall I don't see how this is proof of you being inherently trans.

It could be both.
Sexual and social dysfunction are both key symptoms for diagnosing gender dysphoria. And there are some indicators that that might be the case with you.
But also everything you're saying about the world is true, so you might be just struggling with loneliness caused by a society that dehumanizes and humiliates you.

I then had many negative experiences with men.

many experiences

50% of men under the age of 30 are virgins.
45% of millenials didn't have any sort of romantic relationship by 40.
Even the ones who can find intimacy and relationships are doing so through EXTRAORDINARY effort. That bar is getting harder and harder to meet.

You're not seeing the suffering they're going through.
I trooned out and even as the ugliest non-passing ogrehon all it took was a couple of low effort selfies wearing a slutty dress on dating apps and I'd have 4-5 new men contacting me every day trying to form a relationship with me.

I have intimacy on tap whenever I want it
inb4

hookups aren't real intimacy

They're not for you because you're broken. I can form an intimate connection with a man in less than a minute.

The difference being that women choose to be in those relationships, where many men don't have the option of relationships to begin with. As far as gay men on apps I can't speak to that, though I'm sure the promiscuity and cheating is quite high. I would agree that I have trust and intimacy issues with women. While I'm sorry to hear that you felt restricted by the expectation that you would be weak and inherently less successful, I would also argue that it takes pressure off of you to be those things. That you can be those things if you want to, or simply not be those things. Whichever is the authentic you, you could still find someone to care about you. The inverse is not true. As a man we have no option. We *must* be strong and we *must* be successful or we will be treated with no respect at all. My experiences line up with this. I've not realized my potential in life yet, due to set backs with depression and personal issues within my family that have set me back. If I'm never treated with any love or kindness before making money, then if I find it after getting money I will know that it's only the money that ever mattered, and that no amount of work will ever make *me* matter. I don't mean to generalize an entire gender, but when my entire experience has been only one thing it becomes very difficult to see otherwise. Tonight I went on my first date in years. I'm 27 and haven't had a girlfriend since I was 16 (and on the football team, which probably helped at the time). Now I don't have the status and everything is up hill. Tonight I offered to pay for her first drink as well as covering my drinks. She got a phone call from family and had to leave early in a panic, leaving me early and alone, with the rest of her bill despite money being extremely tight right now and she makes way more than me. I wouldn't have minded that, but to be left alone when I was secretly desperately clinging to any hope that life as a cisman with ciswomen could pan out

I never felt any troon thoughts as a kid. It's pretty recent to me. I just know that I hate manhood. I hate masculinity. It gets me nowhere. It gets me no respect. I'm disposable and if guys like me become too common for society to function without us causing trouble, they will simply find a war to draft us for and send us to die, probably against another country with the same problem so that our disposables can cancel each other out
Being romantic is pain. We live in the least romantic society since the word was even created. Above all, I think I just have too much anxiety and watch too much porn. I don't care for hook ups. I just want love. I'd kick all of my bad habits if I had hope, or someone I could quit it all for. So that I could be the best version of myself for someone. There will be nobody along the way though. I'm expected to be the best before finding someone and that doesn't prove to me that I even will find someone

But also everything you're saying about the world is true, so you might be just struggling with loneliness caused by a society that dehumanizes and humiliates you.

This rings very much true

Sexual and social dysfunction are both key symptoms for diagnosing gender dysphoria. And there are some indicators that that might be the case with you.

As always I find myself on the fence. Maybe I'll look for a therapist because these are difficult thoughts to sort through

You're on a completely different life path and I'm glad for you but wow. A lot of what you say only makes sense in context. The worms run deep. You're quoting doomer numbers that don't hold up to even light research. You are more worm than person. I'm sorry.

OP this woman is relating to you and trying to be kind but you don't want to emulate this. She's a mess. The "depressing truth" blackpill bullshit is indulgent emotional self harm. Take a break. Step back a bit. Don't get too absorbed in this negativity. This woman is not selling facts. She just wants another crab in the bucket.

Maybe I'll look for a therapist because these are difficult thoughts to sort through

Seems like the right call to me.

Also read through legitimate sources
psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
avitale.com/essays/a-developmental-review

There's no click. coming to terms with who you really are after repressing for a long time happens gradually.

That's a beautiful feeling. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. You don't have to give up on romance. There are plenty of people just like you out there. The more that give up, the less likely you are to find each other. It is difficult to start a relationship. Difficult to keep one. It ends up being a huge amount of work, no matter how much you love them. To have to learn how to be your best self in a relationship, which takes experience. But the best way to get that experience is learning to date yourself. Pretty yourself up like you're going on a date and take yourself out for fun things. Think about how you'd make it a good time for your future date while having a fun time.

I would look up the best hiking spots, historical buildings, bars and restaurants. Check em out and have a nice time. Then when I'd finally get a bite on an app I'd have these great date ideas to impress her with. It worked out really well for me in my mid to late 20s after a few years of suicidal depression. I started doing it just to distract myself from my nefarious plots lol.

Thank you. I'll certainly read it
I understand your position and I appreciate your advice. At the same time it becomes difficult not to get absorbed by the negativity when there is a complete absence of positivity. I'm 27 years old now. I've not had a genuine human connection with a woman since I was 16. That was the girl I lost my virginity to and fell in love with. Before her there was nobody before her and I was lonely all my life up till that point. In 27 years, I've felt 26 and a half years of crippling isolation. I don't have much hope at this point

I cannot see the struggles of men because they do not affect me personally

I react with hostility to anyone discussing the struggles of men even though I lose nothing from it.

OP is not a "crab in my bucket" whatever the fuck that means. OP is a man who is in crises looking for someone to provide the needed emotional nourishment so he can be well again. Not only do you not provide that but you react with hostility to anyone who does.
It's not just that you're not going to help him, it's that you're not going to let anyone else help him either, while also telling him that he needs to blame himself for your shitty behavior.

At what point do you take responsibility for the society you live in? Because you expect men to continue to bear that load while you disempower them, while not taking any of it yourself as you become empowered.

And the irony is, even as a transwoman, I'm still going to fucking pick up your slack.

You have beautiful advice, and I would take it all to heart if I had any heart left. I curiously made a dating app profile in an attempt to put myself out there, but despite even paying for a membership as I'm aware they shadowban free accounts, I messaged about 40 women and received not a single match for a week. In fact, with the membership I'd be able to see who likes me, only to find nobody even liked me. Dating apps don't work. I'm not ugly. I'm fairly attractive even. When I was sufficiently depressed, I deleted the app and when I went out with friends that weekend I got several phone numbers from women who still text me. I just don't have good photos I suppose. But those women eventually flake. They aren't real, they aren't serious. They all have dozens if not hundreds of options that aren't me. I was born in the wrong era to ever be loved. I can no longer fantasize about a future that I can't convince myself could ever be real

I didn't want the pressure off me as a kid. I started lifting weights in middle school and only stopped when injured. I wanted the competition. I was an unpopular kid that everyone made fun of for being an obese butterball so I had a lot of anger. I hated female characters in cartoons and anime of the 90s. They were always weak, bratty, motherly, or for anime horny. I wanted the simplicity of achieving my own goals and dreams. Earning respect due to competence.

I worked blue collar construction for a few years trying to get into the IBEW. I worked my ass off. I'm not a drooling idiot, so I pick up shit quick, but you want to know what they had me do? Pick up and carry appliances. They were doing their darnedest to break me. My trainer was a miserable sexless man that hated my guts. A total squidward. Also a horny creep. He got off on ignoring people's need to pee. When we were on a truck together he'd "forget" to stop at the gas station when I'm like DUDE PULL OVER. Only stopped when I finally hit a woman up the chain of command. The guys didn't care they wanted me to fight him or quit.

Sorry I'm rambling. Life is tough man. I know, I lived it too. Women are supporting themselves by working too.

I'll be real I just checked the app every few days to keep on it. It was an every few months thing. It was a smaller college town so there weren't many options. Me being older helped. Dating is most difficult for young men by far. It's true that it gets easier after the first one as well. You just have to create as many opportunities as you can, but not be obsessive about it. Don't stress yourself out over it. That's pointless. Focus on building up that relationship with yourself. Build yourself up into someone you're happy to be with. On that journey you'll likely run into some pretty cool people.

I hit puberty extremely late, due to a previously undiagnosed hormone deficiency. I was smaller and weaker than all the boys and even the girls in my grade every year all the up till high school, despite being a man and being held to the standards of one. I was a football player who could hit hard despite my physical disadvantages, yet the coaches would rarely give me a shot. I understand that anger. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences and you deserve better than that. You deserve all the respect for your talents and work ethic and if I was there I would've stuck up for you for sure. That being said, it's still not an equivalent comparison. If that hadn't worked out for you, you still have the option of the traditional feminine lifestyle on the backburner that could afford you a loving husband who could care for you and provide for you. It sounds like that's not what you wanted. You rejected a decent B plan to pursue your A plan. For a man, our A plan is our only plan. Our B plan is life alone, followed by suicide or drug overdose. We don't have the luxury of options

I'm trying :( I just don't have anything left

I don't have that option. When I was drinking, I'd have these wretched thoughts about being some man's wife. That life would be so easy. But I can't do it. I can't. I don't want it at all. I really, truly don't. I don't want to rely on a man. Especially in a traditional sense. I've seen enough of those relationships. Working in people's houses.

So many well off people in a big house and it's all sterile as shit. Cops houses were often the worst. There was a development they all lived in. Their wives thought they were queens and the men were just. Just what you expect. Kind of scary and they like it. They make sure you know they think you're beneath them.

Anyway it's not an option for me. I'm a lesbian. I can't escape that. I tried dating men. It doesn't work for me. I can't even stand the way they smell. I can't share a bed with one.

You're very kind. Thank you for sharing your kindness.

pretty much the same anon and planning to escape the moid plantation because afabs in general hate us all and expect us to be beast of burden at best there is so much potential and social power and freedom and protection and self expression comes from being a woman the problem is i wish i had started transitioning earlier and moved to different country , every interaction with women feels so dehumanizing and depressing i wish to kms right after so escape the plantation while you can and ignore the gaslighting from people here who will tell you are wrong

Also you could have been one of my best friends growing up. He was shorter than me, ginger, and had all the allergies. He focused on school, made money, and got a wife. I haven't kept up beyond that. I hope she's really cool and not some stuck up bitch after his cash. It's a damn shame I even worry about that for him.

i couldn't give a fuck about intimacy i care about the dehumanization more

it is also why despite i know it is fucked to say that but i believe only children who should transition are boys to girls cuz nobody deserve to live like a male

We're all beasts of burden working to make someone else wealthy. Women work these days as well. They're expected to give up their bodies for their children. They're expected to give up their agency to their husband and children. A lot of female characters in media used to just fade into the background.

You're like those women complaining about being made into brood mares. You have a point but you took it too far.

Of course. We are all struggling in our own ways. There's no point in not supporting each other. Life is pain after all
Time will tell if I commit to any transition, but to even go a non-binary route and simply be myself and reject the expectations may be liberating. At the same time I'm under no illusion that will afford me companionship. To be born a man is to be alone
I'm not ginger, but brunette. I'm glad things have seemingly worked out for your friend. I wish him and his wife much success and hopefully they will have achieved a happy ending. It certainly sounds like he worked for it. I just don't have any strength left in me to work as hard as I need to, or to achieve success to impress anyone
It's both. Intimacy is only truly possible with someone who doesn't dehumanized you. It feels as though they all do though

muh elites

even elites are atms for their women the point is women can choose men don't and again idgaf about intimacy like can we talk about dehumanization little bit can we stop mutilating the genitals of infants because they are male while society loses it shit when something happens to female

muh pregnancy

cool let me carry on my kids i want this burden let me suffer for my progeny and not for whole society and someone else who might take my children away from me . yes being a mother is still much better than semen donator atm machine i am sorry but by every measure being a woman is far much better specially in modern times

Time will tell if I commit to any transition, but to even go a non-binary route and simply be myself and reject the expectations may be liberating. At the same time I'm under no illusion that will afford me companionship. To be born a man is to be alone

understandable but this requires androgyny which is quite rare i wish i had it i think life would have been much better if i looked like a girl to certain degree then maybe later transition

It's both. Intimacy is only truly possible with someone who doesn't dehumanized you. It feels as though they all do though

yes they need to denigrate us so they can elevate themselves and feel sexy and thus pleasure is generated women aren't genuine androphiles like gay men whose attraction is real and direct

Fortunately I'm still quite youthful looking. Everyone assumes I'm a decade younger than I am. I posted Geena Davis because her hair in the pic is what mine would look like if I grow it out. I'lll at least try and see what comes of it
True. Not just gay men, but men in general who can simply see someone and desire them. Instead they work calculations to see what will benefit them and how before ever deciding to be attracted or not. In function they are an entirely different species it feels like

lucky you anon i wasted my 20's repping and coping and i am going rope soon most probably
so please escape while you can and live your life

Instead they work calculations to see what will benefit them and how before ever deciding to be attracted or not. In function they are an entirely different species it feels like

and even when they break this rule they break
it only for other AFABs or females

Don't rope anon. For what it's worth I think you seem like a super sweet person. You deserve the best. Please find it within yourself to find the best in yourself and find the strength to carry on. I will pray for you anon. I wish you all the best and thank you for stopping into my thread tonight

Women don't even breed anymore, that expectation died a while ago.

They just use their money+time without kids to blow guys in Europe and abort fetuses, then complain about getting lonely in their mid 30s

thanks for the kind words but it is beyond over for me and anon please don't hesitate to help others to escape this purgatory

You're too lost in the worms for a valid conversation partner. Too much pain and hurt. Might blow your mind but my point was that the human condition is suffering, we're all suffering together, and you've bought into this gender war bullshit where we bicker over who has it worse instead of coming together to fix things. You're not ready.

Based incels travel to Asia for sex and to find trad wives. They're enjoying their money that they've earned. Makes you mad to see a woman doing it? Men have been doing that since forever.

Also pregnancy often ruins your body. It's why rich people pay for someone else to get pregnant for them. My cousin almost died and had to get an hysterectomy after one child. They replaced all her blood lol. Terrifying.