We could easily win if we abandoned the hons, no one wants to pretend a man in a dress is a woman...

Once we stop*

we are not going to play pretend anymore

whos we, no one does anyways

My gender dysphoria diagnosis would beg to differ.
Also, I don't coerce anyone into pretending anything. I'm a philosophy major who specializes in philosophy of gender, so I actually argue for it. I've had a surprising amount of success; a Trump supporter in my metaphysics class told me that I was the most reasonable trans person he'd ever seen. (He's Catholic, so he was also impressed with my discussion of Aristotle's doctrine of hylomorphism.)

Some dumb trannies and their corporate allies do, but thankfully people are starting to realize the true nature of hons like you. Dropping you will be the best thing the trans movement ever did

Gender is just based on looks, when anyone looks at someone their brain automatically genders them based on their appearance. Trying to correct your brain's built-in gendering machine is a stupid endeavor, and trying to pressure people to do it is certainly not gonna go well. Besides, it will be obvious to the hon eventually that you are just pretending to see them as women for politeness and don't actually see them as such, it only causes inconvenience and harm

drops the hons

now the 0.011% instead of the 1%

gets forcefully detransitioned anyways

the trump administration is going to be historical, i literally can't wait

Unlike you hons we passoids would just diy if we aren't already, if we got very bad we'd just hide in the attic of some hot man

Gender is just based on looks

This seems to have absurd consequences. Are convincing drag queens women? Does a woman who disguises herself as a man to fight in a war thereby become a man?

it will be obvious to the hon eventually that you are just pretending to see them as women for politeness and don't actually see them as such

...are you confused about who you're talking to? I said I was a hon. And yes, I genuinely believe I'm a woman.

TRANS woman

that’s the problem

we'll get fucked over but it's going to be ok i swear!!!!

again, i can't wait!

drag queens use so over the top makeup that you can always tell because no real woman uses that kind of makeup, treating a crossdresser that your brain detects as female as a woman would make sense yes, gender identity is bullshit made up by theyfabs and rapehons

How can you believe you are a woman when you have access to mirrors? Of course a philosophy major is delusional and out of touch with the real worls

what is a woman, what’s a trans woman, why are they different?

the end

That's why I specified *convincing* drag queens. My point was simply that there are men who look like women and vice versa, which falsifies any account of gender as based on visual appearance. (No philosopher to my knowledge defends such an account.)

...because there are women who look like men (and vice versa)? Transphobes are happy to point this out when it comes to passing trans people, but when it comes to those of us who don't pass it's conveniently forgotten.

arguing is pointless because these are just troll threads lol

A woman is an adult female human.
A trans woman is a woman who is assigned male.
Not all women are assigned male, so womanhood and trans womanhood are distinct properties.

It doesn't falsify it because those "men that look like women" are women, if you are detected by people as a man you're a man and if you're detected as a woman you're a woman, it's really that simple. Gender is assigned by view, gender identity doesn't exist

There aren't women that look like men, because if they do they are men. Yes, someone with XX chromosomes is a man if they look like it, what's weird about that?

if you are detected by people as a man you're a man and if you're detected as a woman you're a woman

Steelmanning this view, it seems you're defending a response-dependence view of gender, like the one given by Ásta in *Categories We Live By* (2018, OUP):
P is a woman iff P causes people to have a “woman-reaction” to P (p. 26)
Ásta ultimately rejects this account because of its inability to account for misgendering, but I think it faces a more serious problem: what exactly is a "woman-reaction"? How can this be specified without reference to womanhood, thus making the definition viciously circular by using the definiendum in the definiens?

academoid gibberish

Philosophy majors truly should be banned from speaking.
Everyone in the real world looks at someone and classifies them as woman or man based on looks. Of course this subconcious process is dependent on previous knowledge, our brains got the training data for this from the women and men we saw, given that the two sexes almost always look so evidently different the gender binary is the natural conclusion the brain draws from the analysis. It's a natural result of biology for he most part, but cultural signifiers can also play a role to some degree (some very androgynous people can very well change what they look like at will by changing their presentation, for example)

Trying to change this subconcious process is futile and brings no benefit to anyone, although it's true that if it was somehow possible it could succesfully change what gender is

How do you define "abandoning hons"
Because one of the main issues with this strategy is a lot of cis guys enjoy dressing up as women for fun. Especially comedians using it jokingly.

I.e. Ladyballers but also older skits like Monty Python. These comedians, Dave Chapelle is another, get so mad when trannies tell them to stop looking ridiculous.

Not trying to force people to treat them like women, promoting instead a lookist based foundation of gender (thus passoids are women, hon aren't) which is already how it works anyway

if I promote a lookist-based foundation on gender, what does that have anything to do with hons in public?

That you don't have to take the blame for the next time gamestop hon happens, you don't have to look ridiculous trying to convince people that a man in a dress is a woman, or that a hon shoulder be allowed in the women's bathroom. It protects us by dodging all of the hate that hons get (often deserved as they are mostly weirdos)

I don't get to choose who blames me
they're not going to just ban hons in bathrooms

A lot of people are fine with passoids in bathrooms but not hons, we just need to make it clear that this lookist approach is an option, and that they don't have to ban all trans women just the ones that look like freaks

what, are they going to judge how well you pass in court when you get arrested?
look at the laws being made in america right now, nobody is talking about "unless you pass"

look at the laws being made in america right now, nobody is talking about "unless you pass"

Because the fake trans movement pushed them to, by making it appear like you can only either ban all trans women or allow all of them. It might not be too late yet to propose the lookist approach

and how does that work in practice? Who decides if you pass?

As a chaser I’m tired of everyone pretending Blair white looks good, her hip to should ratio is fucking god awful, big man arms, ugly face

First of all why would you get reported to begin with if you pass? It would rarely happen, when it did well all humans have this thing called a gender detector in our brains, when we look at someone we all can tell if they look like a man or a woman. Passing is quite objective since everyone detects it the same, you could just make the trans woman go out on the street and observe that she gets treated like a woman, proof enough

all it takes is one person clocking you in a bathroom and it's straight to men's prison

She looks like a 2/10 cis woman that got extremely bogged trying to fix herself

Skill issue if you can't 100% pass just cope and use the male or disabled bathroom

you're advocating for a blanket ban and accusing me of not doing enough for trans optics

90% of the tripfags on this board mog her, any halfway cute twink after 6 months on estrogen mogs her.

It's only a blanket ban on the gross hons like you, I got read as a woman even when I boymoded so it's not an issue for me

We could easily win if we abandoned the hons

No matter what we do, or how good we pass, transphobes will ALWAYS hate us. Hell, they barely "tolerate" gay cissoids.

It's not about hons or passiods, it's about how normalfags feel around us.

We shouldn't have to suck up to such filth.

A lot of normal people are fine with passoids and even twinkhons, lots of men for example hate hons but not passoids or hot twinkhons because men think with their dicks

We could easily win if we abandoned the hons

it doesn't work like that in the modern post internet age. Passoids existed since the 40s, were publicized in newspapers and TV, but society still started making fun of trannies, even passing ones. Check out the 80s and 90s some time zoomer bro, I heard it's trendy but you're not gonna like it.

you can build a career based off dunking on hons, but you can't build a movement on it. Also you shouldn't built a career based off dunking on hons because hate consumes you, makes you ugly as a person, and you're gonna surround yourself with people who hate you but see you as a valuable tool to destroy people like yourself (but are less fortunate)

gigahons are my sisters just as much as passoids are
when they come for us me and my bf will house them and protect them all the same

based on those properties ftm is more like mtf than ftm is male and mtf is female.

Female objectification will not re-enter mainstream conversations in a way that doesn’t completely erase their existence due to neoliberal pluralism. Women will struggle to unify over causes and once again be relegated to Spectacles where the stress of centuries of studying female anatomy will be thrust upon them and now others since there needs to be a fascist myth of rebirth to uphold the corporate structures that validate this behavior and a resulting hegemony that due to our emulation-oriented culture, will create pseudo-managers/human traffickers regulating discussions of the female body with little to no benefit for any participants. Every hope people have ever put in women to reform the system from the inside will die at the entrance, since companies understand this better than any persons. If you didn't equate looks to value you would have more resources to rehabilitate people in a way that would realistically create the perception that allows people to individuate casually in contexts that clearly have no bearing on anyone's life. "Trooning" is the farthest you can get from identifying behaviors that literally lead to the kind of meritocracy that creates desiring machines for transforming your body into something less valuable in an imaginary looks market.