Did trans people exist before the word for them was coined?

People we would call transgender today existed in the past and have always existed. There's heian period poems about sibling swapping places to live as their preferred gender

(You)

Yes and no, people who would be trans today have existed throughout history, but obviously transsexual identity is a product of modern technology. You can see the tension between pre-modern and modern transfeminine identity in societies that have and had transfeminine third gender practices which survived colonialism. In India with the Hijra, Thailand and Laos with the Kathoey, Samoa with Faʻafafine, etc. In all of these societies once these groups get access to HRT many reject third gender roles and embrace a binary transsexual identity, to the consternation of their local conservatives.

Any evidence of this consternation or you just imagined it?

Pluto will never be a planet.

PWNBAP

holy shit

Plutobros...

New words retroactively find their old referents. Therefore, we identify trans subjects that precede the word that marks them but they could not possibly be marked before the word arrived into usage and thus were not trans in their day for their time but exist as trans for us in our time. Just try to conceive what an unthinkable existence we could have for someone or something far removed from here and now using words that we cannot use because the words do not exist for us as we may exist for the words. In light of this the gendering of a fossilized skeleton should be the least of our worries regarding that.

reification fallacy

Delusional faggots existed in the past, yes.

You mean transphobes?

no, trans is a specific identity claim that men can have female souls and ON THAT BASIS, deserve social + semantic inclusion into womanhood

Souls...? Nigga what? This is 2025. Who is out here talking about "souls"?

trannies, when they say their body and brain don't match or are not aligned (they say this all the time), they mean they think they have a female soul

we literally have documented cases of trans people from the 1800s being put in insane asylums for being openly trans.

neurology = soul

Not really no.
hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

Just observed a different way.

Because if we decided that “oh wait nvm it’s actually a fetish” you’d be fine with that?

unironically yes because then we'd have an easier path to normalization
fetishes are just sexuality that hasn't been normalized yet if they don't directly harm yours or others lives

What is the purpose of claiming to have "female neurology" other than to imply you think like a female does due to having a female soul?

they mean they think they have a female soul

That doesn't follow. I don't even believe in souls existing.

yes it does, you believe you think like a female despite having a male body, hence what is female is your soul, the conceptualization of your gendered brain patterns

Yes, descriptions of trannies exist as far back as the earliest human cities in Mesopotamia.

I'll put it this way: as soon as animal husbandry began, farmers understood the effects of castration. It wasn't long after that humans deliberately castrated others, or themselves, to induce these effects, which are feminizing.

Huh, I guess that means we're in line with overwhelming human consensus throughout hundreds of cultures consisting of billions of people. What was your argument again?

What are you on about weirdo?

Well you see, (or perhaps not, angloids are quite stupid) there is no 'point' other than explaining why I am the way I am. Why is that important or desirable? Well, most people are not like me and many of them (such as yourself) get very very irrationally angry about the abstract concept of my existence and the existence of others like me. If crazy people such as yourself didn't get so irrationally angry and attempt to make me and my people suffer we probably wouldn't care much about we are the way that we are.

> get very very irrationally angry about the abstract concept of my existence and the existence of others like me

If you didn't try to make their kids gay and try to force trannies on people then yeah they wouldn't be so mad. I am a trans girl but hons like you make me know that you are some balding man lmao. I hope you go to jail with the rest of your kind of was that too mean well you deserve it lmao.

> If crazy people such as yourself didn't get so irrationally angry and attempt to make me and my people suffer we probably wouldn't care much about we are the way that we are.

Here's a example of why you are an issue. You are like some crazy person who wants to cut off their leg and that is okay because it is your leg but then you want to build a community where you tell kids to cut off their legs because their lonely issues are because they have legs.

This is why people hate you. This is why I hate you. Trust me balding man no one likes you. I hope you get raped to death by other hons because trust me no one also wants to fuck you but your won kind!

I am not sorry!

Trans women believe they think like women do, am I wrong? That is, that men and women think differently, and your brain pattern thinking is more like a female's. This is really not so far off from believing you have a female soul and adding a bunch of fancy medical/science words doesn't change that.

What? My brain has a map of my body's sex, and it expects it to be female. This is not a soul claim.

My brain has a map of my body's sex

this is the soul part
what is the map
where is it stored
how do you know you have it

try to make their kids gay

ensuring that the next generation of people who also share your NEUROLOGICAL DIFFERENCE get appropriate information to get medical care that will improve their lives is 'trying to make (other people's) kids gay

As I said, irrationally angry.

I am le trans girl you are le hon

You are an obese 38 year old man who came here from Anon Babble, which you began browsing after your favorite subreddit, r/thedonald, was shut down. I am a trans woman. Take your reddit spacing and leave, Gary.

You are like some crazy person who wants to cut off their leg and that is okay because it is your leg but then you want to build a community where you tell kids to cut off their legs because their lonely issues are because they have legs

Gary, nobody will believe that you're trans, let alone attractive, if you're aggressively anti-youngshit.

This is why I hate you. Trust me balding man no one likes you. I hope you get raped to death by other hons

I'm sorry that you have a norwood 10 hairline and have never had sex, but I have a full head of hair. If you are a repressor and are worried about your hairline I feel bad for you, but I hear there are some great wigs available nowadays!

This is like a religious person telling me that since I don't believe in God's existence, I must therefore worship Satan, and if I disagree they tell me I'm wrong about what I believe.

That is, that men and women think differently, and your brain pattern thinking is more like a female's

Funny, I consistently insisted since childhood that men and women don't think differently and that perceived differences in thought patterns were the result of social conditioning.

this is the soul part

Do people with phantom limb think they have the soul of a person who isn't missing that limb? The brain obviously keeps a subconscious inventory of what parts the body is supposed to have. We don't understand exactly how any of that works because the brain is very complex, but the anatomical patterns observed in the link I supplied to Diamond's overview of research on transsexual neurology don't magically stop existing just because we lack a full understanding of how they affect people.

supposed to have

the brain keeps an inventory

prove any of this

Well you see, angloid, if I was to stab you in the lung with a harpoon you would feel this thing called 'pain.' It's one of your body's ways of telling you that something which is not supposed to happen has happened to it. This pain would be much more intense because the stabbing would have compromised a key subsystem of your body, one which facilitates your breathing. Your brain would automatically attempt to compensate for the loss of lung 1 with lung 2, because it maintains a subconscious sense of what parts it has and is supposed to have, such that when one goes missing it gets very very upset and signals are transmitted to your conscious mind to let you know that things have gone wrong.

I don't think most trans zoomers are able to have a reasonable discussion about what things were like before they were around. The other day I had an adderall zoomzoom screeching at me about how I was a transphobe for thinking "transgender" wasn't the most common word until the last 20 years and wrote up a whole schizo rant about how "just because nobody wrote a wikipedia about me doesn't mean I don't exist"

Lmao so your defense is “so are you” like you just admit you are a balding hon see because you didn't say you were not one. I am not balding I would suicide if I were like you lmao

> r/thedonald

I do go on reddit but I am ban because of balding men like you lmao also I have r/trump lmao

> Gary

Lmao so your deadname was Gary? I will tell you mine it was Sam which is gender neutral I still go by and will always go by Sam lmao.

But you hide and you are afraid of that. You think my deadname if you did correctly type it would hurt me? Like dude I am a trans girl lmao I been through way worst so please grow the balls back that you cut off my dude. Or should I say Gary lmao

> I'm sorry that you have a norwood 10 hairline and have never had sex, but I have a full head of hair.

Lmao holy shit this is too funny I feel sorry for you my dude. Also the projection holy shit, which balding hon are you? Lmao!

Yeah this is your defense to people saying leave kids alone lmao. I feel sorry for other trannies reading your “intellectual” post lmao. See everyone this is your biggest defender. Lmao you need real help good the world agrees and you will soon get some.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5738422/

Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership

Sex is determined in the womb separately between the brain and genitalia, leading to this potential for a mismatch between the brain's sexed body-map and the sex characteristics outside the brain.
Some people call this "subconscious sex". Conventionally, a mismatch in "gender identity".

Also see the high rate of reported "phantom limb syndrome" in transsexuals, though not for a "limb".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb#Other_phantom_sensations

the brain's sexed body-map

explain how you know this exists, what it means, and where and how the map is stored

He doesn't know any of that he just wants this propaganda to prove that he is totally a real woman and not some random weird dude who wasted his life.

Nta but is the bodymap not obvious.....? It's definitely self evident if you've experienced it.

the power of Jesus is self evident
haven't you felt Him inside you?

ask for proof

given proof

"yeah but explain how you know this"

Are you completely braindead, idiot?

the concept of a body map is a Chinese mysticism ESP thingy.

its not really proof its just you repeating BODY MAP and throwing links up at me without actually explaining the details of the body map yourself

Your “proof” is some no-name “scientist” who posted some paper that you just skim over to use as propaganda to get people to believe that you are a real “woman” when we all know that you are not. You are trying to find a way to make 1 + 1 = 3 and it is not working. In a couple of years, you will “find” some new paper that says something else that you will use to once again try to get people to see that you are a woman and it is always focused on trans girls the paper will always use trans girls as the template because that is how propaganda works. You are not and will never be a woman but have fun with the paper reading lmao

OK fucktard

NTA but how else would you explain the phantom limb sensation that amputees and transgender people experience?
Wikipedia extract on it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

In phantom limb syndrome, there is sensory input indicating pain from a part of the body that is no longer existent. This phenomenon is still not fully understood, but it is hypothesized that it is caused by activation of the somatosensory cortex.[9] One theory is it may be related to central sensitization, which is a common experience among amputees. Central sensitization is when there are changes in the responsiveness of the neurons in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord, which deals with processing somatosensory information, due to increased activity from the peripheral nociceptors. Peripheral nociceptors are sensory neurons that alert us to potentially damaging stimuli.

There are theories that the phantom limb phenomenon may relate to reorganization of the somatosensory cortex after the limb is removed. When the body receives tactile input near the residual limb, the brain is convinced that the sensory input was received from the amputated limb because another brain region took over. Reorganization has been thought to be related to sensory-discriminative parts of pain as well as the affective-emotional parts of it (I.e., insula, the anterior cingulate cortex, and the frontal cortices)

(1/2)

From the same Wikipedia, it talks about some limited experimentation on it:

Pons and colleagues (1991) at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) showed that the primary somatosensory cortex in macaque monkeys undergoes substantial reorganization after the loss of sensory input.

Hearing about these results, V. S. Ramachandran hypothesized that phantom limb sensations in humans could be due to reorganization in the human brain's somatosensory cortex. Ramachandran and colleagues illustrated this hypothesis by showing that stroking different parts of the face led to perceptions of being touched on different parts of the missing limb. Later brain scans of amputees showed the same kind of cortical reorganization that Pons had observed in monkeys.

(2/2)

They aren't looking for an explanation, as was just made clear, they have an opinion and they want you to confirm it. Your information is contrary to their opinion so they don't like it.

Phantom limb occurs when a body part is gone, not when it never existed. It says it right in your post (I know ftms reported phantom penises but consider that they are foids and foids are liars)

Are you so uncreative you can't grasp the point being made? The point is the brain has a map of the body, so when a limb is amputated, the body and the brain's map of the body are at odds; thus trans people could be a result of the same principle.

But it does show evidence for a body map existing, while you were arguing that no such evidence existed and that it doesn't exist.
Also, from that same page:

Phantom penises in pre-SRS transgender men have been documented to be similar to the rate of phantom sensations in cis men post-penectomy

Oh but

consider that they are foids and foids are liars

Lol okay
Seems like you're right.

the brain has a map of the body,

you keep repeating it without explaining how you know it is so other than you feel it

Could you explain how phantom limb occurs if the brain has no map of what's supposed to be there?

I’m not even the anon you were talking to before, that was my first post (other than PWNBAP). But you’re calling me retarded without even knowing how the brain develops. It’s plastic. Your neural pathways develop as you use them. It’s why people who lose their eyesight young can take shrooms and see colors but people who were blind from birth usually can’t.

Where did I call you retarded? You sure know a lot about shrooms for someone who's hallucinating things.

But it does show evidence for a body map existing

It shows evidence that your brain develops specific pathways over time and severing the nerve ending associated with those pathways causes phantom sensations.

Uncreative = retarded in my book tbhon. Don’t nitpick it isn’t cute.

Could you explain why it is precluded for this to occur in gender dysphoria? What is your evidence for this extreme claim?

The OP's question has already been factually affirmed. There is no more need for discussion.

But an equivalent sensation also occurs in people who never had the limb to begin with:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernumerary_phantom_limb
Which sounds a lot like gender dysphoria.
And in all cases, sensation of the phantom limb activates the somatosensory cortex, which sounds to me like a body map.

we do think like women

your end game is to get others to accept you somehow think like a woman does, right?

That has nothing to do with OP's question.

Extreme claim? That the brain develops neural pathways as you grow? It’s literally shit you learn the first week of psych 101.

I notice you didn't answer me.

Wikipedia article cites a single human being that did a weird brain thing once

Google it. Spoonfeeders against the wall

So it's proven this wouldn't be precluded, and now you're complaining it's rare? Maybe you actually are retarded?

What is the point of declaring you have a body map mismatch other than to implicitly claim you think like a woman does?

That's just because the body of the article is a stub.
It has citations, one of which is a study with multiple cases of people who experienced it.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7347878/

Irrelevant. If that's the discussion you wanted to have, you should've started with it.

The claim that an internal body map is mismatched with the physical body is to show that medical, neurological evidence exists for why we suffer from dysphoria and that it's a legitimate medical condition that can be treated with hormone therapy and surgeries.

nigger who complained about someone repeating themselves repeats itself

Many such cases

There's no "thinking" required in the colloquial sense. It's just what your brain expects your body to be on a subconscious level. As mentioned it's called subconscious sex.

Why does it matter if trans people really do have a body map of a female inside their brain unless you are also trying to state that trans women think like females do?

And the point of validating your dysphoria is to show we agree that you do indeed think like a woman does. Why are you dancing around this?

You sound like a broken record player. Are you fucked in the head?

What is "thinking like a woman"? Because i am starting to believe you're some esl jeet bot and not a real human. Form at least one post without this retarded sentence

You believe that the way your brain works is overall more similar to a woman. That you behave more like a woman than a man.

Because that's not what I'm claiming and it's not what I said? You're putting words in my mouth.
Trans and cis women probably do think differently, although it's such a vague claim you'd have to say in what way.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss this point. Unless you really are a bot, and you can't.

1. I dont, not mtf
2. Depends on what you mean by behavior? Some cognitive qualities are sex-differing and trans people score according to their transitioned sex even pre-treatment
If you mean socially enforced patterns of thinking then they probably differ yes

2. Depends on what you mean by behavior?

trans people think they act like their identified sex, right?

Group of millions of different people all think this same viewpoint I pulled out of my ass, right?

No?

Nigga, if you use generalized shit like this how do you expect people to understand what you're asking for. Can you somehow specify?
At childhood gender dysphorics do tend to act (or try to act) like the local groups of children of their IDd sex they are around, it's often trained out of them (the behavior) via enforced socialization