Talking to a 'trans-inclusive' cis feminist

walk on eggshells and agree with cis people on everything

I'm not recommending any sort of way that you should've reacted to that particular person, it's more about background context. It seems like trans women just don't want to try and do anything to improve their image the way trans men might have understood. Like I don't know, stop being lazy maybe and this kind of person you meet could more easily be expected to respect "trans woman" as a category of person??????

Why should I suppress a completely normal opinion to supposedly improve our image? This person was a transphobe, me agreeing with them wouldn't have changed that

"I'm not recommending any sort of way that you should've reacted to that particular person, it's more about background context." I.E. what I'm saying is the average trans person should more visibly be doing things most people will like or just anything good, I don't know. It wasn't that long ago humans were all tribes murdering and raping each other. You can't think of this in this oversocialized way as if the default isn't for people to be careless to you.

I do do good things for the people in my life? no idea what you're trying to say

for the people in my life

Aht aht, I caught that hedging. You think that's gonna trickle to the public? What's miss feminist-you-met going to care about what you did for your mama especially if she never heard about it?

what's miss feminist-I-met going to care if I agree with her? she's a transphobe
transphobes aren't really informed how trannies behave because most of them haven't even met a tranny

I wasn't saying to agree with her at any point, actually I recommend the opposite at least as far as trans people go.

There is no such thing as a trans ally. They see us as lesser. They will hold you to constant double standards and think nothing of it. The sooner you stop expecting anything but two facedness and condescension from cis people is the sooner you will stop setting yourself up for disappointment.

cracker

akshully anon crackers were poorfag celto-norman whites who worked for a living, it was and still remains whiteys who enjoyed living off of another man's labour.

There are trans allies. Convincing yourself otherwise is self-defeating. It's true many self-proclaimed aren't genuine, but for starters: there are parents of trans people who have a real dedication to seeing them happy. There are doctors who really care about their work. These people may be rare but that's somewhere you can start to see they exist.

scratch feminist...

According to your logic, she's not a feminist because she defended women. The fuck are you smoking.

Disregard, I wasn't paying attention.
Still, op shouldn't get ass mad over insulting someone and getting insulted back. She picked the most obvious way to hurt you.

I've the theory that feminists support transwomen because they see men transitioning as a way to erase gender roles... then get irrationally angry when they discover trans people don't want to destroy gender roles but to simply choose the one they like the most.

Hmm oh yes this one sided account of political college girl drama is sure to be totally accurate. I am going to take OP's side and get outraged at something that definitely happened.

op shouldn't get ass mad over insulting someone and getting insulted back

How did op insult them? I'm pretty sure op just said something that the feminist found objectionable, which is not a personal attack or insult

Imagine someone telling you trannies should go back to drinking horse urine.

seems fake but on the off chance you actually believe in trad gender roles:
what probability do you estimate of any western society adopting trad gender roles but trans-inclusive within the next twenty years? the socially conservative party in every relevant nation is also anti-trans. given this, why aren't you better off siding with the people that don't want to force you to detransition and just finding someone willing to larp the trad thing in a relationship?

Believing in traditional gender roles is not the same as believing that women are inferior to men
The fact that you addressed me as "you trannies" is pretty telling for what you actually think about trans people

Believing in traditional gender roles is not the same as believing that women are inferior to men

Yes, it is the same. Holy shit, now I get why she got angry.

Most trans allies are just doing the gender respecting thing as a service to you and that's how they mentally box it. If you do something that annoys them they no longer consider you worthy of the service.

still confused. when OP

mentions that I believe in traditional gender roles

i have no idea what the fuck she actually, literally said. can yall elaborate?

Yes, it is the same

Tradition gender roles are based on the idea that men and women are different and therefore their roles in society should be different
The idea that women are inferior is not inherent to this belief, and the only people who believe that it is are groypers and radical feminists

Traditional gender roles maintain that a woman is only good for cooking, prostitution, and popping out babies. Remember the absolute shitfight that caused the academia to finally issue a diploma for Marie Curie? Do you know there used to be treatises on how women couldn't feel pain like men do? Do you know a traditional woman is completely removed from decision making precisely because she is considered cattle?

depends on what you mean by believing in traditional gender roles

I've the theory that feminists support transwomen because they see men transitioning as a way to erase gender roles...

my theory is they're supportive if they see trans women as gay men for that reason but otherwise they see it as men trying to impose their definition of womanhood on them
idk i support liberal democracy and the right to self determination and bodily autonomy but also that gender roles are a reflection of physical reality
men and women are unequal groups. if you want an egalitarian society, either you treat them equally, which leads to unequal outcomes. or you treat them unequally in an attempt to equalize the outcomes

you are projecting a whole lot of ideas onto what the op said.

OP is evasive about what she actually said, probably because the thread is bait. In and of itself, the phrase "go back to traditional gender roles" means going back to retarded oppression.

the phrase "go back to traditional gender roles" means going back to retarded oppression

This is unironically the most bad faith interpretation of what op said

angry when they discover trans people don't want to destroy gender roles but to simply choose the one they like the most.

That's still disruptive to 1950s-ish style gender roles which were dominating when both feminism and the gay movement emerged.

good faith: what the fuck did OP actually say? i’m open to getting my mind changed but i’m having trouble imagining it was anything that banal if yr getting that kind of reaction.

1950s-ish style gender roles

Can anyone explain to me why Americans are so obsessed with the weird dynamics that only existed for a short time in some households in a certain area?

maybe im retarded but i assume she literally said "traditional gender roles"

I can't explain to you if you're going to twist what I say into your fantasy version. There are still people trying to resurrect it.

Why? That shit was unsustainable and damaging to the psyche.

It's bad faith because you are assuming that op meant it in a 'women should make me a samitch' way with no evidence other than the other person's reaction

traditional roles are all about "woman make me a sammitch", yes. it's their main feature.

i didn’t assume shit, but i did wonder why the reaction was so extreme. look, makes a fair point idk. still, in my experience, the hostility toward trannies in cis-dominated feminist spaces looks way different than what OP’s describing.

i figure bc people are terrified and the american evangelical right is clever. i haven’t heard a good argument for that shit yet, but that doesn’t mean it’s not argued for often.

What are the odds OP let her acquaintance catch a glimpse of that nice, well-fed, nurtured over the years sissy fetish?

It is possible that op isn't being very truthful, but it is equally possible that the feminist was a rad-fem who finds the idea of co-operation with men inherently disgusting
Also, sorry for being aggressive, I assumed you were

this theory is correct
there are genuine ones but unfortunately the ones who make a lot of noise are almost always the type that see us as fruity men

yr good. and truly i’m not gonna act like cis self-described feminists aren’t capable of heinous shit, or that i shouldn’t be wary siding against the tranny here, but given what “traditional roles” means on Anon Babble, it’s hard to side with her. that said, regardless of whether any of this shit happened or how, the whole “i can misgender you if i don’t like you” is fucked no matter who does it.

the whole “i can misgender you if i don’t like you” is fucked no matter who does it

I think it can only be justified when the trans person has done something actually heinous like murdering or raping someone, otherwise it's a horrible thing to do

If you believed in traditional gender roles you wouldn't transition in the first place.

/thread

We don't allow people to say racist stuff to black people when they rape

yeah no i can’t get behind that one. like, i see the point in the short term, don’t call the highly publicized serial killer a tranny, but in the long term i think it perpetuates the idea that humanity towards trans ppl is revokable and needs to be reearned whenever the world feels like it. i don’t think it’s good for us, but i know trannies who disagree, so.
still, even if that were coherent in a bottom-up ideological kind of way, given the amount of trans women charged with murder for self-defense and sex trafficking/indecency for sex work, i think you’d need a better definition crime than the U.S. usually enforces.

supporting traditional gender roles and being trans is incompatible OP, a traditional male has a penis

Am I supposed to agree with cis people on everything?

no, but some people, regardless of their gender identity, are just like that... avoid them and talk to more stable people.