As an intersex person I believe trans and interse rights are inherently linked

it's about 17 times the amount dyadic people identify as transgender

well being transsex is an intersex condition
hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html
but that's hard for people to accept since it's material reality and not mental illness that you can either validate or not

dyadic

isnt there a better slur for non intersex people
like i remember perisex that sounds cool

better slur

it's not a slur just the name like cis

milton diamond is very based

Are those trueintersex numbers or fakeintersexes?

that paragraph is stupid I have a true medical DSD, but it's retarded to frame it like this. Most people recognize klinefelters as intersex within community because it's a chromosomal intersex condition which effects sexual development, doctors do not consider this a DSD/intersex. This idea exclude multiple conditions which are obviously intersex

this is a genspect website, anti-trans propaganda

So?

many intersex condition are socially not seen as such and theirby can be claimed away. this is science apperently.

so it's not a reputable source. It's an article published by a hate group as propaganda
just from reading the image it's clearly not written in good faith. "Most clinicians" have all sorts of opinions about stuff that they know nothing about. If you were trans, you'd know the value of the opinions of "most clinicians". It's not scientific, and it's using weasel words to try to frame a narrative.

What is a credible source?

a credible source is a peer reviewed scientific publication, like a journal. A credible source should be backed up by strong evidence, and should either have no bias or the bias clearly stated. A book can also be a credible source, if it's from a trustworthy author and uses credible sources for its claims.

Now what

INTERSEX INTERSECTIONALITY IS BASED. MANY TRANS PEOPLE ARE INTERSEX AS WELL. YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT AND BASED WE SHOULD BE FRIENDS.

INTERSEX ALSO HAVE A PLACE WITHIN THE BROADER LGBTQIA+ SPHERE AS WELL BECAUSE MANY OF THE BIGOTED POLICY AND CULTURAL NORMS THAT NEGATIVELY AFFECT LGBT PEOPLE ALSO AFFECT I PEOPLE.

based on the abstracts they're just random authors trying to take the most precise definition of intersex possible. The first one denies that klinefelter's or turner's are intersex conditions, which is not the scientific or public consensus nowadays.

If I was born with fucked up dysfunctional genitals that didn't develop properly, I personally would like to get them repaired for free. Instead of having to wait 18 years then spend up to six figures out of pocket to do so.

klinefelter's and turner’s are barely intersex. Acknowledging them as intersex is probably transphobic somehow, but I’m too high to do a tumblr prose take

I don't even want to dignify you with a proper response.
you should kill yourself

0.018% figure

counts people with Klinefelter's, i.e. male with two X chromosomes and one Y chromosome as totally not intersex in any way bro

I think that bullshit definition to arrive at 0.018% was created for ideological reasons, the same reason you've decided to cite it instead of more reasonable definitions.

actually sex is about chromosomes!!!!

Crypto terf horseshoe theory lmao

Nah, I'm going to reply to what you're no doubt thinking. I understand that you would've liked to keep yours, but how can you tell that the majority would feel that way? A lot of people are no doubt intersex and don't know it, even if it was externally obvious and their genitals needed to be repaired, it's not like their parents will always tell them. Most of these people are probably fine and prefer living as the sex they got. For me, this is like a harelip, being a developmental issue. Is it possible that someone would've preferred to keep their harelip into adulthood? Sure, but I don't think it's fair to every kid to tell them they can't have their harelip repaired until they're adults just on the off chance there's a few people out there who enjoy having a messed up body part.

missing the point on purpose

I’m not missing the point. I’m resting my nuts on your face

operating on genitals that small and undeveloped only leads to horrible complications as an adult. it can't be avoided if there are urethral issues, but for cosmetic purposes operating that young is wrong for more than just moral reasons

leads to horrible complications as an adult.

Do you have sources for that claim? The intersex raison d'etre in regards to genitalia is always about to have kept the non-functional, poorly-formed organs, not that their genitals would've worked and they'd be real-life futas if the doctor hadn't intervened.

so ITT we ignore that all trans people are intersex (and therefore are more prone to having other intersex conditions)

this is true. transpeople on HRT are medically induced intersex. and many of them seek transition because they are intersex to begin with.

even chris-chan?

I think anon is referring to the studies about how transsexuals have indeterminate brain development between male and female brains.

considering this researched fact defeats all transphobic ywnbw thoughs/arguments it is clear why it's so suppressed in all discussions, even mainstream lgbt circles (they see you as mentaly ill, but validate you nonetheless lol)

sadly the amount of men with such fetishes vastly superceds the tiny minority that are trans woman (and the fusion of is of course deliberately done conservative media)

this is the same tactic used against every group where you try to pit a minority of 'the good ones' against an imagined hoard of bad ones letting the side down

which in itself seems to have a genetic cause hudson.org.au/news/written-in-dna-study-reveals-potential-biological-basis-for-transgender/
if you weren't on all trans people having an occult intersex condition since birth

occult

What?

nothing really changes huh

not seeable when your were born, most intersex are occult

we can pierce the void anon
we can see beyond the veil

yeah but on the other hand considering how trannies colonize and hijack every intersex space to make everything about themselves i don't really give a fuck about them anymore
it's a nightmare going to any queer support group because it just turns into the trannies there trying to stripmine your life and body for validation and fantasy fuel. no empathy or solidarity, just gwitwm and begging for you to look at their genitals to see if they have secret surgery scars or begging you to diagnose them as intersex too and melting down when you tell them to go to a doctor
or going to an intersex support group and it's all trannies larping and they assume you are too when you have the condition they're pretending to have and they don't like what your actual symptoms and body parts are
just outstandingly fucking selfish and self-hating so badly that they're looking for anything to make them not "just trans" and think an intersex condition is their golden ticket that you're gatekeeping them from getting

yeah :)

can you give some examples of trans people hijacking intersex spaces?

irl lgbt spaces are mostly weird and toxic no matter the letter

Anyway this study's main claim is that mtf transgenderism is caused by a or a series of undiscovered androgen insensitivity disorders.

like it or not like it but theres no LGBT in actuality
it's LGBI, scientifically speaking

scorching hot take, but the reason this isn't talked about more is because of the assumed cis identity of inter people. they are literally privileged over us because of their proximity to cisness, and will never acknowledge this, because they don't have to

total support to my intersex comrades

shut the fuck up

case in point

that's not case in point that's me telling you to shut the fuck up

yeah it was really fucking awesome that some doctor chopped up my dick after i was born and didn't even do a good job of it because i still ended up with a freakshow body

but you still are assumed to be cis by the average person you meet. no one calls for the extermination and shunning of inter people in national media

i would say half-truth really boils down what intersex condition you have and if you want "crosssex hormones" and such. so if your HRT and switch you gender roll, then they'll see and treat you as tranny basically

they can't because this doesn't happen, I run an intersex support group in my city and the only trans people in it are also ones who have a diagnosis of an intersex condition
t. OP

so for clarification, you wouldn't allow intersex people who are just trans in?

no, it's primarily focused on the medical issues which come from our disorder. the organization I run it through also has a trans support group and LGBT support group though, I do go to the LGBT group but not the trans group as I don't think I'd be welcome

occult just means hidden or hard to know, though its an archaic usage because of its association with stuff like lovecraft and after that witches and conspiracies.

I absolutely agree. The issue for me in my community is that I don't know how to reach out to the adjacent groups that intersect with transgenderism. Gays and Lesbians are great, don't get me wrong, and they've done so so very very much for us that we owe them everything we have, BUT, I think Transgender, intersex, and gender diverse, needs to start establishing itself as its own thing so we can engage more fully with the other groups with which we have so much in common.

Particularly with intersex (which is more than just birth defects, it also includes spayed and neutered cancer survivors, PCOS and AIS, and more) it's so hard to get the message out that we make our space welcoming for you too.

And it's really not about rights. The Americans and the Brits are being faggots right now, but they'll come around. It's about infrastructure. It's about having facilities and organizations and community organizers and that sort of thing so that we can continue to improve quality of life for all of us.

well being trans is certainly a medical issue and there are several other intersex condition that pose no medical issue to the person + i would welcome you in any trans group, this forsaken divide benefits no-one except regressive forces that want to remove us from society

it also includes spayed and neutered cancer survivors

I can guarantee you right now that the vast majority of men who've lost their prostate or testicles to injury or disease would be enraged to be labeled intersex.

people are already enraged about trans people and women PCOS being intersex, but we can't just stop because the truth hurts regressive worldviews

You have to ask yourself, is intersex about biology or identity? And if it's about biology, what counts? Genetic and developmental disorders, or to include injuries? These are all different things.

Which is kinda super duper the point right? Those guys needs support networks, access to medical care that meets their needs, counseling services, and of course gender affirmation.

As a transwoman, that's what I need. Because it's not about rights, it's about infrastructure. And it's easier to create that infrastructure at scale.

So how do we communicate to the Robert Paulson's of the world that we're creating this space for them too?

it's about biology and most see it that it isa developement thing ergo in utero/by birth and not through injury

no i'm not. literally everyone who sees me thinks i'm trans in one direction or the other and then decides i'm lying when i correct them and learning about what condition i have and what was done to me changes nothing.
trans people think everyone has sympathy and kindness toward intersex conditions, no they the fuck do not. it's all the homophobia and transphobia that comes from trans hate combined with the ableism of being disgusted by congenital deformities
they think we're deformed freaks who never should've existed in the first place and that the thing that was wrong about my mutilation was that it was botched and incomplete, not that it was done at all
when you see sympathy you are seeing the minority opinion and assuming/hoping it's the norm. it isn't. i've lived it. the majority are fucking repulsed by us too

I prefer the one from Ms. A’s case study

biology, obviously.
And it all counts. Intersex is a very broad term that covers a lot a different conditions.

Exactly the same way that gender diverse isn't a thing in itself, it's a category of genders that don't fit into the male/female dicotomy. But it that case it's about identity.

the nazi thinks we should split LGB and T

wow no way haha thats SO surprising.

guy who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is a nazi doesn't understand venn diagrams

shocker.

can you leave my thread? not a big fan of anti semites

no they the fuck do not. it's all the homophobia and transphobia that comes from trans hate combined with the ableism of being disgusted by congenital deformities

they think we're deformed freaks who never should've existed in the first place and that the thing that was wrong about my mutilation was that it was botched and incomplete, not that it was done at all

trust me they think of trans people also as deformed freaks of nature, were not treated different, but for some reason trans and other intersex people think they are. whenever our rights are attacked both groups suffer, because we're one and the same

That's not bad, but that's really only mapping the mental axis in more detail.

It's not dealing with the social axis, which is where gays & lesbians & the ever growing acronym comes in. These aren't mental illnesses. It's just the "it's okay to be different" crowd.

And it's not dealing with the physical axis which is the need for access to proper medical care and health and fitness services.

And TIG is sitting right at the intersection of all of that.

Then get the fuck off Anon Babble.
It's not your thread, it's a thread, and nobody, NOBODY, has the right to censor or gatekeep here.

If you don't like it, leave.

Then get the fuck off Anon Babble.

It's not your thread, it's a thread, and nobody, NOBODY, has the right to censor or gatekeep here.

If you don't like it, leave.

you seem really immature and lame lol

I’m intersex and jewish and I don’t think circumcision is as blatantly harmful as IGM and I think we should stop letting intactivists ride the wave off our suffering. Like I’m sorry your cums aren’t as good but hey look on the bright side sport its still there!

pls everone wants you to leave

this is actually an interesting convo to have thank you for replying :)
I don't think it's as harmful either but where I see the parallels with my own experience is the lack of ability to properly consent to your body being altered in such a way.

everyones life would be improved if you died in any horrible way you can imagine

circumcision is mostly genital mulation and should be treated as such, only extremly rare cases exist where it has to be done (beacuse the forskin band is too tight)

Sorry but I don't want to crossover with retards.

This makes me want to post more, anon.

another call to activism

ugh.
why do you keep trying to start fights we can't win?

You seem like reddit would be an appropriate website for you to go back to.

everone

speak for yourself loser.

Cool so this is my thread now.

Pity your jewish DNA is so inbred that you're related to a couple of thousand.

Leave chopping off dick tips for your adults.

Calls me a Jew when I'm the only person not kvetching about them being in the thread

why do you keep trying to start fights we can't win?

what are even talking about, you're the biggest nonsense poster on this board that coincidentally only protects bigoted causes

In my experience it doesn’t really seek anything? Like those groups never get reparations, they never get any legislation because they won’t go incrementally, they want a total ban right off the bat and aipac will never allow it. Carve an exception for religious freedom and jewish and muslim lobbyists won’t be able to shut down the 100% ban of goy snips. But why change the world when you can just blame jews for 7th adventists like kellogg? Meshuggas, nothing in common with the sort of mutilation you see in IGM, where no care is taken at all to ensure proper sexual functioning point blank period. Its more than a humiliation ritual, it ruins your sex life, forever, from infancy, with no chance of acceptance as anything but a heavily fetishized carnival sideshow, if the damn thing works at all. Its totally incomparable in terms of harm.

You can't get what you want because a Jewish organization is blocking you, so why are you upset at Jews?

Are you stupid or something?

read this slowy again

it ruins your sex life, forever, from infancy, with no chance of acceptance as anything but a heavily fetishized carnival sideshow, if the damn thing works at all. Its totally incomparable in terms of harm.

That anon wants to pretend complications and damage from circumcisions never happens because of religious bias.

I don't project any fucking causes. I didn't transition to activist.
I actually support, in a tangible sense, any transwoman who needs.

You on the other hand
1. Gatekeep their care until they can prove political loyaly
2. Create obnoxious issues that drown out discussion of things that actually (like not enough properly trained MDs to oversee transition)
3. Antagonize the my neighbors, co-workers, and potential romantic partners into taking a hardline stance against me.

And then, the inevitable response, is JK Rowling and Donald Trump. THAT'S what you've done for transwomen. THAT'S why nobody is thankyou for your service. We don't want to join you, we want you to stop.

It's a medical issue. Not a political one.

truly always the same, people need to suffer for no reason and you're bad if campaign against it

fuck off antisemily nobody likes you and you're ugly

Well its being blocked because a total ban would be unconstitutional. Now look I’m reading the teshuvot, I am aware of the symbolic hatafat dam brit over the heart and deferring surgical recourse to adulthood. Jewishly I’m fine with that, medically there are some negative considerations, but you have to make that case to charedim too and like the halakhic support just isn’t there, and “my peepee wont feel as good” is not gonna fly in that world. There is a historical argument that originally the procedure was less drastic and slowly intensified in response to pressure to assimilate with greeks, I think thats the argument you want to advance, but its for jews to decide internally not the state. Now with goyim? Yeah sure ban it, no goy needs the snip, theres absolutely perverse incentives with stem cell research.
There are entire generations of american women that thing uncut cocks are gross and cut cocks are clean. You can 100% have a normal sex life. Imagine if all you had was a scarred, flaccid lump, would you even have a girlfriend? Its night and day, your cums aren’t as good so what you can get married and shit shut the fuck up and stop stolen valoring genital mutilation you cranks.

No U.
You fucking Jewish piece of shit.
You're not an ally, you're a cancer.

You on the other hand

1. Gatekeep their care until they can prove political loyaly

2. Create obnoxious issues that drown out discussion of things that actually (like not enough properly trained MDs to oversee transition)

3. Antagonize the my neighbors, co-workers, and potential romantic partners into taking a hardline stance against me.

your just making things up, you don't know me
i agree its medical issue, a medical that's under attack by certain politics

There are entire generations of american women that thing uncut cocks are gross and cut cocks are clean.

Ok and? That doesn't dictate reality. It's forced genital mutilation on children wtf

don't burst a blood vessel now

a medical that's under attack by certain politics

Yeah YOURS.

1 You're gatekeeping ME because of politics.
2. You're turning a discussion about including intersex people in transgender spaces into a call to activism
3. Those people with "certain politics" are my neighbors, co-workers, and potential romantic partners who didn't give a flying fuck about it until you decided they were my enemy, without asking me first.

So I know you well enough to know that I don't want to know you. I want you to find another fucking hobby.

I'm reporting all your posts btw

Fucking hell I hate Jews. 2,000 years and your still the same monsters who killed Christ.

Again, stolen valor. Look at FGM, the entire clitorophallus is removed. Look at IGM we’re talking urethral lengthening causing a lifetime of UTIs and strictures, straight up radical vaginectomy and hysterectomy, penectomy and orchiectomy, forced sterilization shit. I’m real sorry you lost some skin but thats LIGHT slicing at best and hardly “mutilation” directly impacting long term health and functioning.

You're turning a discussion about including intersex people in transgender spaces into a call to activism

it's not about activism, they are intersex same as me and all other trans people and we should have a united intersex front, what are you on i seriously don't get it

“my peepee wont feel as good” is not gonna fly in that world

The entire point being made here is that people look on your "but I lost my dick/you sewed up my vagina because you chose my sex for me and so I feel incomplete," or whatever was done in your case specifically, in the exact same fucking way as "my dick doesn't feel as good" or "the doctor botched it and my dick doesn't work at all/got outright cut off" from circumcision. Outsiders see them both as exactly the same, complaining about no-big-deal cosmetic procedures. So internally, there's zero need for some kind of suffering olympics of "oh yeah? well my mutilation was more severe!" like that helps anyone at all.

It's for Jews to decide internally

Not really, in regards to childcare and health that's indeed the government's choice. As long as you want to live in goy countries, at any rate, you obey their legal system. We don't let other races abuse their kids, why would we let Jews do it? Assuming, of course, that you consider your genital mutilation as a child to be abuse, which I assume you fucking do if you're intersex and here to complain about it.

you're gross in body and mind nobody was going to like or accept you, the best thing you could do for trans acceptance is detransition

a total ban would be correct
regardless, nobody is making any progress against circumcision anywhere. There isn't a single country in the world where circumcision is banned because the ruling class won't allow it (unironically the one case where the problem actually is da joos)

the mutilation of children is not a competition you monster, it's always gross and invasive

lmfao christian

Well its being blocked because a total ban would be unconstitutional

there is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about a total ban on infant circumcision. We have no problem doing it for girls.

we should have a united intersex front

That's activism.
Intersex people don't need a united intersex front.
They need the same things I do.

Properly trained doctors and therapists.
Support networks and inclusive community groups
Community engagement and appropriate employment opportunities

And YOU, not "them", making being an activist in your jewnited front the price of entry for all of it.

Properly trained doctors and therapists.

Support networks and inclusive community groups
Community engagement and appropriate employment opportunities

that's literally what i mean and want, again what are you on about???

Look at FGM, the entire clitorophallus is removed

this isn't true. FGM ranges from infibulation, to clitoral removal, to removal of the clitoral hood, to cutting the labia, to nothing more than a pinprick and a drop of blood. Many forms of female genital mutilation are worse than the common form of male genital mutilation, and many forms of female genital mutilation are less severe than the common form of male genital mutilation. All are rightfully illegal.

As long as you want to live in goy countries, at any rate, you obey their legal system.

Yeah I don’t big guy! And hey whats that shit in the constitution? Free exercise of religion? Why don’t you follow your own goy laws before telling me I don’t understand it.

Lemme hit you with something, do you think a jewish boy might feel strange being uncircumcised? Do you think he might face issues finding a partner? Bullied in school? Isn’t that ALSO abuse? The important part of having a just society isn’t just to use YOUR definition of abuse, you have to look holistically at the multicultural knock on effects of your legislation, and account for it, or you won’t move the needle at all. Thats just politics, for any issue. And hey it seems really easy to carve exceptions out, they carve a big one out of all these trans care bans for intersex babies who need to be snipped.

emily is a mentally ill australian conspiracy theorist that john 50'd and spends 90% of its time posting about da joos

It’s a little bit different

there is no difference in how the law would need to be applied

The best thing I can do for trans acceptance is point out that it actually is the Jews who are stirring everyone in America up about transwomen.

picrel was the mastermind behind the Dylan Mulvayney bud lite commercial.
She's Jewish.

that's literally what i mean and want

Then why don't you say that?
Because what you actually said was

our rights are attacked

we should have a united intersex front

Which has exactly fucking nothing to do with community outreach or medical training

How do you propose getting those things without activism? You know that just because you don't like "activists" doesn't mean fighting for those things isn't activism, right?

Free exercise of religion

does freedom of religion mean that that FGM should be legal too?

Lemme hit you with something, do you think a jewish boy might feel strange being uncircumcised? Do you think he might face issues finding a partner? Bullied in school?

no, because his peers would also not be circumcised

boil your head

Yeah, I agree. Reading the realistic fiction novel "Middlesex" made me realize how similar/interlinked our struggle is.

kvetching

By BUILDING THEM OURSELVES.
It really doesn't take much to create a monthly transgender meetup group (support network).
And once you've got that you can start to pool resources. You can find the doctors who know what they're doing and all go to that doctor. You can build facilities and create employment opportunities. You can engage in community outreach at local events.

Because as I keep saying it's about infrastructure. And the more intersectional you are in doing this, the more people you involve in this way or that way, the more resources you have to create that infrastructure. That's what this venn diagram is about

I’ll change tack for a sec. Trannies, we gotta talk about the whole AFAB this AMAB that language you’re using. For intersex people “assignment” is a coercive process of surgery and hrt and medical abuse and gaslighting, aimed at denying the biological fact of the person’s body in favor of a social reality and legal fiction created by a doctor. It is not a legitimate process, and shouldn’t be held up as a standard of meaning anything at all about objective reality. Now hey look at that, exact same language, used to deny the social reality of trans people, suddenly in favor of biology. Well which is it? We can work together to get this whole bullshit framework thrown out, but you HAVE to stop legitimizing it. Just stop using this bullshit cmon it hurts both of us.

I don't give a single fuck about the constitution. I don't even believe in republican forms of government.

Yeah I don't big guy!

Lucky you

Would the Jewish boy feel strange not being circumcised?

Would he if the adults around him weren't eyeing his dick? If you think you should obey Jewish law that apparently doesn't mind genital mutilation, move to the Jewish country. You have right of return. Hypothetically, as you said, you already do. This is unlike an Italian-American for example, who'd have no right to flee to Italy if the US banned spaghetti. Regardless. I don't know how you can say shit like this in the same conversation where you're complaining about how wrong you feel your dick got cut off. If a religion existed where doing that to kids was part of their sacraments, would you support their right to do that in Israel? To do what was done to you? You have a massive, intentional blindspot where you excuse what your religion demands, while objecting to anything similar from other religions. This is a blatant bias.

you're defending surgery on unconsenting minors (=mutilation)

>our rights are attacked

>we should have a united intersex front

Which has exactly fucking nothing to do with community outreach or medical training

well both things can be true and needed

isn't the point of assigned sex/gender at birth exactly to point out that it's a legal acclamation and not a direct observation of sex (which is a category)
transphobes use the term sex observed at birth which sounds more like what you're arguing against
we don't like being called afab or amab, it's just the term we use to mean what they decided we were when we were born

i simply hate everyone who use agab language be it a trans/intereex or dyadic person

They can be. They're just not.
Activists are chasing away transmen, transwomen, intersex people, etc etc, because they don't want to get dragged into political bullshit.
At the same time the only thing Activists have achieved is pissing all the normies off.

Okay, here's where I feel like the conversation isn't productive.

Properly trained doctors and therapists.

We have this now, but it was the result of medical activism. Doctors weren't always able to treat trans people properly. And when they were, it was incredibly restrictive and gatekeepy - it's not like that as much anymore (in the US) because of activists.

Support networks and inclusive community groups

I guess you could argue this isn't activism, but community organizers are typically activists.

Community engagement and appropriate employment opportunities

Fighting against employment discrimination - again the work of activists. Community engagement - literal trans activism.

Now, it seems to me more like you're arguing that involving intersex people is a bad kind of activism that we shouldn't do, and all of the above is just not activism to you, but it is.

From my exposure, the AMAB and AFAB designation is used either to simply define one's biological sex at birth (which is a biological fact as much as any brain morphological difference might be to qualify them as intersex,) or as a short-hand in the process of discussing biological issues they have to deal with as a result in place of 'transwoman' or 'transman.' Like saying "I'm AMAB" in a discussion about hairloss tells you just about everything you need to know for the context of this conversation. "Yeah they're a transwoman and got shit genes so that's why they're balding."

i never talked directly about activism, that was you when i said we are politically under attacky, which is true, again you are imagining things

one's biological sex at birth (which is a biological fact

no it isn't, you can objectively describe directly observable traits, you can't objectively observe what category somebody is in, we sort people into categories based on a set of rules and out observations of other traits

transwoman

transman

I see you

well if consider the vast amount of interchanging intersex conditions agab tells you nothing it's a useless medical descriptor. There's your typical fully male man and fully female woman and then there are intersex who all need individuel medical help where agab tells you nothing (historically the assigned at birth language was used to pressure intersex and thereby trans people into a specific gender role)

We have this now

Maybe you do. I don't.
My GP is an ally, but he doesn't actually know what he's doing. I do the research and he writes the scripts and stuff.

it was the result of medical activism

No it was the result of research and evidence.
Activists don't do research and don't like evidence unless it confirms their bias.

but community organizers are typically activists.

Which is a HUGE problem.
That's where the gatekeeping comes in.
It's not okay when you do it either. Neonazi trannies have the same right to access medical care that you do. Because it's a human right, you get it by being human, not being left wing.

Fighting against employment discrimination - again the work of activists.

How did you get from "create employment opportunities within the community" to "yell at employers until they give me a job?"

Community engagement - literal trans activism.

You are fucking broken in the head. Selling showbags at the local agricultural show is not activism. It's participation.

Yeah they're a transwoman and got shit genes so that's why they're balding.

i don't think you know what you are talking about, sounds like bioessentialism

I'm using sex to mean gamete production and chromosomes, not gender identity. I'm well aware of how touchy this subject is for intersex people specifically, but most transsexuals pre-treatment at least do indeed have working gonads. Someone saying "I'm AMAB" might as well be saying "I was born with sperm makers." And, as a result, they were assigned the male gender identity. The gender identity is an assumption; having the sperm makers is a reality, even if their brain might be intersex. Assuming they don't have any other intersex condition, which they can, of course. We can fiddle with the language all we want if it makes you comfortable, but it'll ultimately refer to the same thing whether you say 'sperm-maker' or 'male (sex)', and for a transsexual it is innately a point that their biological traits were used to assign an identity.

Maybe you do. I don't.

Yeah, sorry, I live in an area of the U.S. with informed consent HRT and also easy access to diagnosis.

You seem to have an idea of activists being science deniers who just yell at people. Medical activists just fight for changes in care and will justify it with research and evidence. Change may just not happen due to entrenched or conservative attititudes.

How did you get from "create employment opportunities within the community" to "yell at employers until they give me a job?"

How did you get that from what I said?

Like I said earlier, you have this idea of activists being assholes who just yell at people and deny science. But successful activism relies on community engagement and relying on academic and scientific institutions. If they're conservative and refuse to do proper science, then activism is a lot harder, but then the work of activists has to include fighting for proper science to be done, too.

Modern activists are often just assholes online who yell at people. Notice that these aren't typically successful at anything. Look at successful activist movements and organizations in the past. The civil rights movement, the Black Panthers, the Gay Liberation Front - these people engaged their community and helped each other out in the way you're describing. It wasn't just assholes yelling at people to comply.

Someone saying "I'm AMAB" might as well be saying "I was born with sperm makers."

no that's just wrong because we'd use the term even if you couldn't produce sperm, more accurate would where you lie on the phallometer
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phall-O-Meter
it's got nothing to do with gametes really, they don't check that when you're born, they write down if you've got a vulva or a penis, and then they force intersex people into approximating only one form

'sperm-maker' or 'male (sex)'

literally just not identical groupings

no that's just wrong because we'd use the term even if you couldn't produce sperm

I said 'sperm-makers' meaning testes, not "has sperm now" or even "could ever produce sperm" I'm aware that it's possible for someone to have ovaries that descend like testicles and in that case the doctor made a wrong biological assumption, but that's not the usual case. All I'm trying to do is express why those terms get used from a transsexual perspective; it's because, by and large, their gender identity was assigned to them because of a physical reality. This is in contrast to a lot of intersex people, whose gender identity was assigned to them as part of a process where a physical reality was ignored. Thus, why transsexuals are comfortable with those terms, and intersex people are not.

Literally not identical groupings

In absence of also having the egg-makers? It more or less is when we're talking biological vs. social sex. But for the sake of the conversation I'll ask right out: how do you define biologically male?

I live in the socialist republic of victoria, Australia. Some of the most progressive trans laws in the world.
Informed consent is what I'm doing. That's not proper care, that's just letting me DIY legally.
And there are zero therapists who are trained to do anything other than cognitive behavioural therapy, which isn't effective with gender dysphoria and can be quite harmful.

Medical activists just fight for changes in care and will justify it with research and evidence.

That's not an activist. That's a medical researcher. That's what they're for.

Change may just not happen due to entrenched or conservative attititudes.

See the cool thing about entrenched conservative attitudes is that they don't impact science. The thing about activists involving themselves in the scientific process to fight percieved conservative boogeymen is that it stops being science and become a political stance which then invites the very conservatives you're so worried about to consider the issue.

How did you get that from what I said?

OMG how are you this fucking obtuse and disengenuous?
You don't need an activist to build a second hand clothes shop that employs a transwoman, because activists don't build anything. Activists tear down patriarchy.

Notice that these aren't typically successful at anything.

Oh you've noticed too? Because that's my entire fucking point!

The gay liberation front started in gay bathhouses in san fransisco. Those gay bathhouses weren't build by activists. They were built by gay men who made a living running a gay bathhouse.

See the cool thing about entrenched conservative attitudes is that they don't impact science

What about the scopes monkey trial?

Alright, whatever. You seem to be labeling good activism as just the right thing to do and all activism as bad activism, which you don't like. This isn't going anywhere, so let's stop here.

what about that thing that happened in a courtroom

That's not science sweety.
That's not how science works.

The scopes ruling didn't change the science. Scientific progress continues regardless. The scientific method is not a political stance, it's a tool we used to discern fact from falsehood, and it only works when activists keep their dicks out of it.

NO U.
You seem to be stretching the definition of activism to mean anybody does anything for any reason ever (except conservatives).

except conservatives

No, right wing activism definitely exists. I don't know why you think I implied they never do anything.

Scientists must be educated into that role, they don't just manifest. If it was illegal to teach evolution, then you would effectively render yourself incapable of educating biologists at all. Then wherefore would they come? Would we expect every generation to, post-graduation, make the discover that evolution is real? That keeps you on a treadmill.

Sorry, my mistake

activism means anybody does anything for any reason ever

well I'm going to do some activism in the toilet which will be ten times more productive than your life to date.

If it was illegal to teach evolution

Places outside the United States do science too you unironic American idiot.
Science didn't stop from scopes. It didn't even slow down.

At least they aren't gender dystopia, that was the stupidest thing to classifie transgender as mentally ill.
Yes every transgender with gender dystopia is now mentally ill.
Meaning you can be committed to a hospital

You can believe what you want, but I don't think it will serve you well if you're trying to create change by engaging with your community and organizing to educate scientists. You will be called an activist. The only people who use your definition of activist being "asshole who yells at people" at status quo propagandists who paint all activists that way.

at status quo propagandists

are status quo propagandists

Places outside the United States do science

No shit, but I presume you can at the very least extrapolate the situation the US was suffering to other parts of the world. What if it had been Australia? Same case. Someone had to stick their neck out there for the sake of getting the science recognized, it can't just stay in the lab if you want to produce future scientists.

But that's not what I'm doing.
What I'm doing is making myself available so that baby trans have someone to go to to help them through their transition. And to provide all TIGs with a social network they can rely upon for support.

you can at the very least extrapolate the situation the US was suffering to other parts of the world

Why would I tho? While the scopes trial was going on Georges Lemastre, a French priest in Italy, was figuring out the big bang theory.

What if it had been Australia?

Even more irrelevant to the march of human progress than when American does something retarded.

Okay. I genuinely hope you can make yourself available for baby trans to help them with their transition and creating social networks. I just don't see that as separate from activism.

It's seperate because I don't give a flying fuck what thteir politics are. They're my brothers and sisters and they need help and that's that.
So you need to start.

I have to go.

This is really just American exceptionalism applied negatively. "Only Americans would be that stupid," which is a mindset that opens you up to abuse from your fellow countrymen having strokes of retardation. Like we didn't just see the UK take a shit on transsexuals, or is that still just an exceptional American stupidity?

read what I wrote again

Man boobs are intersex by science, hormones are estrogen.
So what about that ?
What about me I have one ovarie and one testicle, I was born premature and my reproductive organs were very small at birth, chromosome test says I'm a girl. As time went on my reproductive organs grew looking like a male , my ovarie produces a ova egg .
I'm in my 50 a military veteran and my inflammation is being changed to female.
Now what ?

Some of transgender are fucked up, but some are really nice people.
I completely understand your situation

I don't think that's what she meant. She's saying that Australia hindering science (by making evolution illegal to teach) would be even less relevant to the march of science than American doing it. She's basically saying that any one country doing something dumb won't stop science from advancing. Quite idealistic and optimistic, in my view, but that's not relevant.

So you need to start.

I'm trying to make connections online, but right now I'm not in a position to help anyone - little money and can barely transition with DIY in secret. I'll try to pay it forward when I can, though.

Also, in case you ask, yes, I'm doing DIY, but have access to informed consent HRT. It's just more convenient and not that much more expensive.

Pissing everyone off, they are.

They may be inherently linked, but right now I do not like feeling like anyone cares about me other than as a genetic side show to prop up the trans movement. It seems like people only care about us as an ace in the hole to pull out only to support trans issues and they soon forget about intersex as quickly as they learned about it.